The eMoto Show
The ECR eMoto Show is a podcast dedicated to electric dirt bikes and the eMoto industry.
The eMoto Show
Eric Peronnard on Stark, Alta, and Why Electric Dirt Bikes Are Finally Being Accepted
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In Episode 9 of The eMoto Show, we sit down with industry legend Eric Peronnard to talk about where electric dirt bikes really stand right now, and where things are headed next.
Eric has been at the center of it all, from Supercross and X Games to the early days of electric racing with Zero, Alta, and now Stark. We dive into how far the industry has come, why acceptance of electric dirt bikes is finally starting to shift, and what still needs to happen for eMoto to fully break into the mainstream.
We also get into the challenges of racing electric bikes, why traditional class structures don’t really work, and how events like TKO and X Games are adapting. Eric shares insight into mid-size bikes gaining traction, the rise and fall of early electric race series, and what the future could look like as OEMs start taking electric more seriously.
If you want a real behind-the-scenes look at how the electric dirt bike movement has evolved, and where it’s going, this is one you don’t want to miss.
Welcome to the EMoto show. Today we have industry legend Eric Pernard on the show to talk about everything and anything emoto. Alright, we've got the OG here, Mr. Eric Pernard. We we like to joke. Original gangster, but you you like to say old gangster at this point. But uh boost. Good friend of ours here at ECR, and you're just uh a legend in the motorcycle industry and uh honestly plan on having you on the show a ton. So hopefully we can just for people that don't know you, you've probably been living under a rock, but maybe for those people, uh, let's get a little bit of uh the history of of Mr. Eric Pernard. And I know you started many, many years ago and have evolved the motorcycle and and dirt bike industry with a lot of the events and uh tours and different things that you've done in the industry. So let's uh let's get the background on you, Eric.
SPEAKER_02Oh God.
SPEAKER_01It's kind of a long story. Where do you start? Well, let's at least start with some of the racing and promotion stuff because I feel like that's yeah that's some of the more current things.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I moved to US about 40 years ago, and uh I've been um, you know, I started in the adventure business. You know, we started my wife and I, a big uh adventure company in the 90s, backed up by Yamaha, and uh nobody knew what the adventure business was, you know, and uh we uh we we ran it for 17 years and took 5,000 people on adventure tours. I mean, not me, of course, but we had we had a staff with that. Uh so it was it was a very exciting part of our life. In in parallel, we we built uh dealerships, you know, we were the Yamaha dealer for Las Vegas for 10 years in the 90s. Uh then we had uh KTM Polaris dealership in Florida for another 10 years. Um that was kind of like the the less fun part of our business life, and uh and um the third part of uh of uh the uh you know our our life was uh the motorcycle race promoting uh became the the liaison slash conduit with all the world promoters for supercross. Um we uh we were hiring the riders, sending them all over the world literally in the 90s, 2000s, and um then that led to the creation of the US Open of Supercross in Vegas in 1998. Uh that that led to uh uh selling it to what we know today as FELD. And I worked with them for four or five years, you know, as a VP of international business, took the first monster truck show out of US, uh, ran the World Supercross, um, you know, at a time when it belonged to them. And um then I guess I got bored of that and I created And Eurocross and Minimoto, you know, with different partners and um and TKO and uh got hired by X-Game. I'm still with X Games 17 years later. Uh I'm the one that brought electric bike to X Games. And the last 20 years I've been really, really kind of like uh, I wouldn't say on a on a proof control, but I've been my passion has been really to try to make people realize how much fun it is to ride an electric bike and uh build a high level of acceptation, you know, of this. And and it's working, and it's working. I'm telling you, my I mean, I mean Moabuta currently, my my happy place, and uh riding every day, seeing people every day, you know, jeepers. I mean, the the reaction to electric bike is really different than five years ago. It's it's quite amazing. You know, everybody is positive about it. Oh my god, it's it's what are you riding? It's a stark, it's an electric motion. You know, it's like people don't know much about it yet, but they are super, I mean, I I didn't have any any bad comment, you know, from from a jeeper or a side-by-side guy or whatever. Like, like I I think we're turning that that corner here, you know, on a on a general acceptation acceptation, you know.
SPEAKER_01Well, you and you would know, because you're I mean a true pioneer in so many different forms of the sport, but especially with electric, like it's becoming more commonplace now, but it's not new to you at all. And if you dial back, I I mean, like correct me if I'm wrong, but it was like Minimoto is when you started with an electricity.
SPEAKER_02I think it's 19 years ago. We we we organized, I opened the door to zero motorcycle in 2007 or 208, and we had we had a um electric bike class, which kind of was was a flop with the spectators. You know, it was fun race, but it was a flop with the spectators. They didn't understand the quietness. And and funny enough, we we had uh, you know, Emig racing, we had Tortelli racing, who is now the head of racing for Stark. So it's like uh you know they there was a few things that happened where you know uh it was, but you know, I'm I'm used, I'm used to be early, you know, and that's that's uh that's a that's a bliss, blessing and a curse at the same time. You know, the adventure business in 1991, nobody knew what an adventure bike was, you know, short of uh short of having adventure tenaries coming from straight from Japan with Yamaha. It was like we had no idea that it would be in industry today. You know, I mean it's uh we were two tour operators in '91, you know, in the world. You know, now there's there's more more than that in Moab.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. I mean, thinking about the electric side though, like what made you think to do that all the way back then? I mean, people didn't even know that electric dirt bikes existed. So what what was the push for you to think that way?
SPEAKER_02Uh just, you know, I I mean, I have to say, uh Neil Sayke, the founder of Zero, uh, became an instant friend when I made him 20 years ago. And uh he he was just like he was a really, really smart guy. And uh he just kind of like said, hey, we have to make that happen. And it's where we're exposing, we were trying to do, we're trying everything. We did a 24 hours test. We we we took the bike to to X-game to see freestylers acting on it, but the thing was not ready yet. You know, it was it was a glorified bicycle at the time, you know. And uh, and uh I think you know, then then uh, you know, I worked with the Alta, and that was really happy years because they were a great bunch of people and they they really wanted to make it happen. We did uh the Josh Hill at Straight Rhythm, which I'm the producer, so that was kind of easy to make it happen. And um, and um, you know, Ty Tremen at Erzburg, and and you could see uh, despite the challenges, you could see that there was something. You know, there's something. I mean, it's you know, I mean, I'm I'm one of the first guys to on the Tesla. Uh, we're talking 13 years ago, and uh it was not easy. You know, it was not easy to to have an electric car 13 years ago. And um, last month I cross-country with my car, you know, so without without much trouble, you know. I mean, actually zero trouble, you know, and uh I'm like, well, it's uh, you know, despite uh a you know non-friendly political climate and all that stuff for electric, you know what, it's it's really getting ground. There's no question about it. You know, we we we are on the right side of history, you know, as far as trying to make it happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I feel like the Ulta days, like that to me, it was really what put electric dirt bikes on my radar way back then, was just seeing really Josh race and then Titramain and in Erzberg. But like those Ulta years, I feel like that was really what put electric dirt bikes on the map, and it it created an appetite for it that when Ulta went away, we didn't realize what we had until it was gone. And I think that there was a big void for you know, like real legit dirt bikes uh in the electric space when Ulta went away. But um, I think that's like that created like kind of a an appetite and a big wave for what we're seeing now. Um and absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Alta was the turning point in US at least. Sure. You know, they they were not capable of building enough bike to export. So that's that's that's basically stayed, it was an illusion for the rest of the world. For us, it was a reality. You know, fortunately, they were not uh, you know, as good to find funds as they were to build bikes, which is uh, you know, it's uh nobody's perfect, right? It's just uh it's just it's it's it's still it's still the the real pioneer, you know. It's uh it's alter. And you still have one without question.
SPEAKER_01I've ridden yours recently and it it's it still holds holds its own, man.
SPEAKER_02It's uh it's a great machine, and yeah, it's turn the key and it's ready to go. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they they did a great job and it like really high quality. And then um, you know, you were the first person to put Stark on my radar. I don't even know if Stark had a name when you told me about it, but uh you were also a consultant for them.
SPEAKER_02They didn't have the Stark name, and I'll keep that for myself. Yep, yeah, but they had the name that was not really good, and I said, no, I think you have to find a better name.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you uh I remember being at your your property in Florida and you showed me a a chart of where that bike would land based on current competition and the the former Ulta, and it was uh very impressive. But um, how did the Stark thing come to be for you?
SPEAKER_02Was it just they knew that you were involved with Ulta or how did that whole uh Yeah, I mean it's you know when they called me out of the blue, I mean, through connect, I mean through connection because of you know my uh my past. And it was I mean absolutely fantastic. I mean, Antony's great. He called me, he said, I want you involved. It was just around the COVID time. So it's funny because uh when it first time he called me was like two months before COVID broke out, and I said, you know what? I'm I'm I'm tapped. I can I don't have more time. Yeah, and uh two months later he calls me back and I say, I've got time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, things change a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Things change, and uh we we we build a friendship and it was uh it was awesome, and his enthusiasm and his ability to to run a business are quite exceptional, you know. So we we things sometimes go too fast, but um, you know, it is there's never the the right middle, the right balance, you know. It's just uh it's just uh uh and uh the bike came out came out, it was impressive. I first I made them buy an altar because I say you need to ride an altar to kind of like have a have a base, because you you you can't be, you have to see what was best up to now. And um because they they didn't have, I mean, the team, I mean the engineers, of course, they had plenty of knowledge and some were connected to the altar days, but the bottom line is you know, it's it was not, it was, you know, it was more like a a business opportunity, you know, than really like you know, like you and I. We want to ride electric bike, but it's you know, it changed very quickly, it became became a passion, and they ever everything got on track. Um yeah, it's uh they they are they are the ones that changed the world. They are they are the Teslas of uh of uh electric bike and uh you know I wish them well. It's just uh we need them. We just need to be uh we need to be focusing on on range and less weight and stuff that we we all agree on. You know, it's uh you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It feels very much like the the Varg to me feels like where Alta would have been headed if they had stayed in business. It felt like you know, the the redshift 2.0 or whatever you would call it.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Because there are some like very obvious similarities between the bikes, but it's just it feels to me just like a better version of that that redshift.
SPEAKER_02It's an evolution, like I was telling people to you know, get on a gas bike from 2012, that's that's an alter, and get on a gas bike of 2021, and that's that's a start. As much as you know, Kenny Roxon is showing us right now that you can actually win with the 2012 bike, yeah, you know, there's still still a big difference, you know, and mostly in ergonomics and and the field, because it seems like a 10-year-old bike can go as fast as a a brand new bike, you know. I mean, you know, in in proper hands.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, exactly. That that's the key there. As Ken is showing us, in proper hands, uh sometimes it might not matter as much which bike you're on, but uh yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's uh it's uh he's very brave to have a kickstart. I don't even know what it is anymore. I don't I've got 15 bikes and I don't have one bike with a kickstart.
SPEAKER_01I'm embarrassed to say it's been a long time since I kickstarted a bike, but yeah, I do have that itch every now and again. Um so, like, where do you think things are headed right now? Uh you're obviously very involved with electric motion as well, and we know about their partnership with Yamaha and seeing the uh prototype bike that they've got there. Uh, you know, it's mostly for display, it's just a YZF with an electric powertrain in it, but that's very exciting to see. And it it I feel like that's breaking the internet and giving a little shimmer of hope for that. And you know, we've got Honda who's got had their HRC bike in the news here and there over the years. Like uh I know you're you're behind the scenes on some of that stuff, so I know you're you're probably not at liberty to talk about everything, but um yeah, where do you think things are going for the the bigger OEMs?
SPEAKER_02It's going it's going good. I think there's uh there's definitely uh a lot of cautiousness when it comes to the Japanese, and and that's that's why they their product are so good, because they don't, you know, they don't test and sell a bike in in two weeks' time. You know, they they just it's more like years. You know, I mean the unit is years. Um Europeans we we like to do in months, uh and and and Chinese old style, it's within weeks, yeah, you know, or days. Or days. Yep, absolutely. And uh that's uh that's that's where it's gonna be a little bit complicated and slow. But I'm glad to see the the Japanese manufacturers in general, in cars and and uh and model, uh they they're suddenly changing their mind towards electric. Uh, I think they they're looking at it a lot more seriously. There's a lot of uh rumors about special batteries coming from Japan, and and and we know they have the abilities, they're just super careful. You know, and that's um that's for us impatient Westerners, it's difficult to understand. But um it's it's happening. Uh I'm sure that within two or three years we will have at least two Japanese brands selling elect serious racing electric bike. Uh will it be better than a Stark? I don't know. You know, I mean, but you know, the standard is is pretty much settled at that moment, you know. And I think we just need we just need you know a Stark in different variation. You know, we need a we need a a frame that feels more like a real frame and and maybe a clutch, maybe an electronic. I mean, all the things that we can have. It's um it it will it will happen. It will happen. Um you know, and Stark is gonna be like Tesla, they're still gonna be the leader because you know the leader is the first one that succeeds. You know, and it's um it's it's it's it's it's uh it's it's just a challenge for everybody. You know, you have to you have to stay number one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's an exciting time because we you know I I know most all of the Chinese bikes that we've seen to date are not up to the level of the Ulta or the Stark in terms of just you know a proper dirt bike, but they they move so fast that I can see that being a bit of a challenge uh or a thought process for the Japanese. I know it's a different category, but um like you said, they are they're slow to bring some of these things to market, but it's so well thought out. Like, when do you see a Honda or a Yamaha have reliability issues? It's like maybe there's a little thing here and there, but like almost never. Like those bikes are just so well thought out that they don't release products that aren't going to be reliable for the the customer. And that's something that we I don't think that we see with some of the other quick-to-market brands.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I I know they have unbelievable ability. Yeah, you know, they they have test ground. Well, we don't even know how much they do on bikes, you know, to test them and everything. It's just, you know, I was on the phone with some head of uh a Japanese company a few minutes ago and uh and he was telling me about what they're working on and stuff. I'm like, wow, it's just just amazing. You know, it's like, but sadly, it's amazing to the point where they're moving so slow that we forget we forget about it, you know, because yeah, they'll tell you they're working on you know on a four-wheel drive motorcycle, and by the time the bike is to production, we forgot we talked about it 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. Yeah, the patience level now is just crazy. It's like uh, I mean, we're seeing it with Benell and Dust and some of these other brands that have been a little bit more open and forthcoming, but man, it's like uh the the you see the patience level of the the customer, and they're there's not much.
SPEAKER_02One thing I've noticed which is really good for because you know, we're all on the same page, uh three, you know, we just want to see electric bike do getting a bigger part of the market, opening riding area and all that stuff. That's uh you know, I don't care if it's two strokes, three stroke, five stroke, or electric. I would at the end of the day I want to ride, you know, and um the the accept acceptation of um of um uh mid-sized bike growing like crazy, right? Like crazy. Like, I mean, you know, I was at the Moab Hard and Dure a couple of weeks ago, and uh and the amount of people that were so shocked that how good that Bonell 805 was with Max Beaupre on the bike, which is a big part of the the success. Yeah, and it's like people are changing their mind, you know, like this lighter bike, a little bit smaller, which by the way is an invention from Beta, you know, the X-Trainer is the first light dirt bike. And uh kudos to them, you know, it's not electric, but it's really a bike that uh gives you um a lot of fun and uh ability to ride in many places where you wouldn't take a bike that's maybe 10-15% bigger. But you know, the amount of people that told me, man, I want an 805, it looks so much fun because it's light. It's an 805 is a super Suron Ultra B. Yeah. You know, I mean, in in a nutshell. And it's I'm kind of surprised, you know, to see uh because I always, you know, I always thought people were kind of rejecting the the lighter, skinnier bike, but it's changing. It's changing.
SPEAKER_01Brian and I have both been really vocal about it. I I I mean I I still want to see full-size dirt bikes, but that mid-size category to me is one of my favorites, and it just it feels like a really good blend of of maybe a little bit of that mountain bike feel that you get from an electric dirt bike, but also capable enough, as Max proved at Moab and many other people have proved on Ultra Bs, is they're super capable bikes. Um, but the fun factor is just super high. And yeah, like you said, I mean beta X trainer, it's not the most popular bike, but that paved the way. We saw like KTM Freeride, not the electric one. First, it was that the KTM Freeride 250, and then that bled into the electric, which is the same chassis. Um, but that category of bike, it's like something that we haven't seen much in the gas world, and it's something that I feel like electric has the capability of really uh driving home is like, hey, we can have sizes to bikes kind of like mountain bikes. And um exactly I think that opens the door.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it's definitely Seuron has been creating a complete, you know, category here. Yeah, it's just like uh that uh light B was really a toy and the Ultra B was became a motorcycle, and everybody is still shocked. Um Much fun you can have an U Trib.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. After the 125s went away, we've been missing that bike size in the lineup, really, after everything went to the 250s. No, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's well, it's what I tell people. It's like I feel like when I jump, I feel like I'm on a 125. When I'm on even an electric motion, which is a full size electric bike, it still feels small compared to a regular bike. And uh the, I mean, the fact that the bike is below 200 pounds, it's really fun to ride a bike below 200 pounds. You know, it's just uh it it allows you to do a lot of things. You you're a lot more cautious to do with 250 or more, you know.
SPEAKER_00You mentioned that the Europeans move a little faster than the Japanese manufacturers. You know, we've seen Ducati come online, Triumph, Beta. Do you think any of those manufacturers would want to put out or are thinking about putting them out any electric bikes?
SPEAKER_02I I think they all have tested, you know, I mean, Triumph owns um what's the name of the brand, uh the Charles brand.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they bought Asset, I think.
SPEAKER_02They're ball Ausset, so they they they have some technology, which is basic technology, but no, nobody is ignoring it. You know, I mean Ducati is is you know, I mean, it's linked to the VW group, so I don't think there's a lack of technology available. I think it's just a matter of uh of um, you know, but we need a a little click, and it's you know, I've been working on that and trying to to convince the right people that uh I mean there is no space for an electric bike class today in let's say motocross or supercross, but working slowly and uh opening doors, you know, just enough could could change a few things in the future. It's just uh uh yeah, I had some interesting meeting last month with uh with uh people very influential in Motocross, Supercross world. And I was uh I just showed them a project ad to include some electric racing, and surprisingly, they were very positive. You know, so we'll we'll keep on digging. That's what uh that's what life is. You know, it's uh it's one step uh two steps forward and one step backwards.
SPEAKER_01Well, if there's a man to make that happen, I know you are that man, so I'm I'm glad to hear that that is maybe in the works. I have I'm curious.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, even even the hard enduros, lot a lot more electric bikes, I think they realize you know they they're shrinking the the lengths uh off the loop very often, like we do we do for TKO. And um, you know, yeah, we we we you know at some point we we we will have hundred 100 electric bikes at TKO. And uh, but I don't know if it's gonna take two or three years. You know, it's gonna take a while.
SPEAKER_01For sure. I like going back to the bike sizing uh you know issue compared to displacement of gas bikes. How do you feel like that impacts the the racing? Because it's really hard to define electric dirt bikes right now, and we really only have one option at the moment for a full-size MX bike being the Stark. And so as capable as Ultra Bizarre and some of the smaller bikes, they they just don't really fit in any category, like we've got 250s and 450s, and prior 125 two strokes and 252 strokes. Like, do you feel like that's holding some of the racing back that it's just a little bit vague when it comes to displacement?
SPEAKER_02It it's too confusing. I mean, uh the we our brain are so you know connected to displacement that we were, I mean, it's you know, I always said electric bike belongs in the open class. I'm talking about full size. There is no, I mean, uh, this gimmick of trying to limit the power and everything is just an open door for cheating. And if you don't cheat, you'll be accused of cheating anyway, right? You know, because everybody's gonna think you you have a you have a program that allows you to have a hundred horsepower on a gate, and that could be kind of like the you know, the the diesel gate for VW when when you open the the car trunk, suddenly the car doesn't pollute anymore. I mean, it's it's too easy, you know. So it's why we have to be right away saying full-size bike, you know, it's electric bike is a full-size bike. You know, it's a it's a 450, it's a 500, whatever you want, but it's not competing against uh trying to get electric bike in a 250 class. Yeah, it's it's not good. It's just gonna be it's gonna be uh you know not well accepted. So once this is accepted for the full-size bike, then we have to create our own classes for the you know lighter bikes, mid-size, whatever we want to call it. And that's that's where it becomes a problem because you know electric is extremely difficult to control. You know, I mean you you the the smart people can make anything happen. You look at look at we have we have bikes that can wheelie all the way, you know, without the the rider assistance. You know, I mean, like I'm I've never been able to pull a wheelie. I'm thinking I should buy one of those bikes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you just be riding one wheel all over the place. Exactly. I would go around the block all day long, you know.
SPEAKER_01But it's Eric's gonna digress into a 12-year-old cock boy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So it's uh you know, that's a big challenge for us. And um, yeah, because all those bikes have so much ability. You know, you you when you take a 125, right? Short of cheating and putting a 136 kit or something like that, yeah. Good luck. Yeah, yeah, you can maybe stretch it to 150, but yeah, with take a an ultra B, you can turn an Ultra B into a 50 horsepower bike.
SPEAKER_01That one right behind us, yeah. That thing, I mean, that's like almost 125 size, but man, I've ridden that back to back with an actual 125, and the power differential is just you can't even compare it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it's just exactly yeah. So uh we we're gonna have to be smart on that level. And I I I really don't know how we can control it. And uh I think we just have to accept the fact that you know I think we have to to to stay on what's controllable, which is the size, you know, the mid-size bike has to be a mid-sized bike, and uh we have to decide the the wheelbase, you know, has to be X, and um and that's gonna be that's gonna be it. You know, it's what I was doing for for Endurocross when 10 years ago we started to have electric bikes coming and the and the the free ride e is just kind of like take the free ride e wheelbase and say that's that's you can't be any smaller than that because we had the issue with Charles bike coming in. So we we basically kept the wheelbase, you know uh to a standard that no bike smaller than uh the the free ride, the free ride at the time because it was it was a gas bike, as as you mentioned, yeah. And uh the free ride was like the minimal size bike. So, you know, uh once again, it's uh it's gonna be it's gonna be uh a lot of uh you know hesitation, mistakes and stuff, but controlling the power is just like good luck.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Eric, you've run a bunch of different competitions and motorsport competitions, and I think the noise and the sound of the engines is a is a huge part of going to one of those events. How do we bring that kind of intensity and excitement to electric racing?
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, I I felt that way uh for many years, which I knew uh it's the the noise is a big issue. The spectators are very happy to to hear some noise. Um, like I always said, is the same people that give us trouble the entire week because we're too noisy for gas bike are the ones that want a quiet bike. Uh no, the the people that want a quiet bike during the week want a noisy bike on week on race day. Yeah, you know, so that's that's where the the dilemma is. And um after going to couple downhill mountain bike event, yeah, I uh I can tell you it's pretty exciting, even though it's very quiet. So it's it's people, you know, it's people the best way right now is to mix them up at the highest level, you know, like we did, like we did with Josh Hill at um Straight Rhythm. Having a mix of electric and gas uh for the spectator side is by far the best the best and the most interesting and the most positive for the industry. You know, they are it is really, really good to see that. And you know, it's not necessarily gonna be winning, but it's gonna be relevant, and it's what we want the electric bike is to be relevant with a gas bike. So yeah, yeah, complicated.
SPEAKER_01The first time I really noticed it is I was actually standing with you at TKO for the straight rhythm uh finale there, and we had all the two-strokes running, and it was just very loud, very exciting. You couldn't hear anything but a wide open two-stroke, and then it was time for the electrics to go, and it's like you could hear a pin drop. And like I think you and I looked at each other and we're like, ooh, man, this is different. Like you it just seems like you need like music, you almost need like an MC to kind of commentate, you need give people cowbells to be you know making some noise of their own, like a downhill mountain bike race. But it does seem like there needs to be uh a different element to to bring the excitement there because yeah, we the lack of noise is when it's gone, you're like, oh, this is a different vibe for sure.
SPEAKER_02And you know, it's like it's a safety issue too. Um you know, I'm considering changing the the order of um electric bike racing in uh at TKO, we send the electric bike first, but it's it scares a lot of people, and um I know it could be a liability somewhere because especially now when we have guys like uh Eddie Carlson riding, you know, I mean, as long as it's normal people, we gotta be we're gonna be uh you know semi-safe. But when you have a top 10 guy on the stark, you know, entering the woods, it's kind of like uh wow, you know, or or or even better, Wally Palmer on the Stark.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, watch out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wild Wally coming through the woods here. Yeah, it's a silent killer, yeah, you know, for sure. And plus we we show up so quick and then we get rooted down the wrong course, and next thing you know, you got your amateurs stuck in the the pro line and just out there suffering. I wouldn't know from experience, but yes, yes, it sounds familiar, but uh no, it was it was all good. Hey, I want to talk about um the eXplorer series that seemingly kind of disappeared, you know. Like correct. That was uh that was a shame to see that that go away. And it seemed like it had good momentum in the beginning, but um what are your your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02I know you were involved in that a little bit, but uh yeah, you know you know I was definitely wanting to help them because I I love the concept, you know. I uh Valentine uh the founder is is is a good friend. I've known him for 20 years, and uh I know I knew he had the talent to do that. Um sadly, the industry was not ready, you know. Uh and financial financially speaking, mostly. Uh I mean, you know, it was it was a first-class show, it was in super nice destination. I mean, you know, Swiss ski resort, uh Osaka, I mean that's uh Sardinia, I mean really nice place. Everything was there, but it was just too early. And um the industry was not ready yet. Uh on top of it, uh Stark uh was not interested, you know, because they didn't want to be competing against electric bike. Uh so that that was kind of a, you know, it's just it was kind of a perfect storm in a way against it. And um, but we we we had good times, we learned a lot. Um, you know, you learn you learn especially what not to do. And uh, but you know, it's um it was a good attempt too early, too early. That's uh, you know, Formula E, uh, the Formula One version of electric is not doing fantastic, but there's a lot of money behind it because it's cars. And when you do the same thing for motorcycle, I mean the the the car budget compared to motor budget, you're talking at least 10 times less right away. Yeah, you know, and and and it's maybe 50 times less. Uh so you know we couldn't even get you know battery company to invest in the ide of v explorer, and that's that was a shame. You know, the the biggest success was to get Honda bringing their team and actually racing. That was pretty cool. That was so cool.
SPEAKER_01That was one of the coolest things of the event, it seemed. I mean, I I was kind of shocked to see that, but it was uh what a great showing to see that bike in action.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. That's the only time we've seen that bike in action, and uh and uh you know, not uh it it will come back, it will come back. It's just many times, you know. You when you want to be pioneering something, it's just just what you're doing with your with your you know with ECR. I'm sure you felt many times it was too early.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean you shared that with me, like the the first year uh that TKO happened for Electric, I remember talking to you after the event concluded and just being cloud nine, like we need to do more of these, we need to have uh there's so much potential here. And you kind of reined it in a little bit. You're like, yeah, you know, don't go too hard too soon. And obviously, you have uh decades of experience on on race promotion. And um, do you feel like over-diluting that early on can kind of take the appeal away from one of these some of these one-off events when you've got uh too much going on throughout the year?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean it's it's always it's always the same. It's always the same with Minimoto, you know. When when we created Minimoto 20 years ago with my friend Tim Clark, uh it was like, you know, suddenly there were so many mini bike races, and and it's it's it's not in a selfish way. It's like when you dilute something, it's like just simply going back to you. Uh if you have 10 ECR, you know, in America, uh you you're diluting your your your crowd, you know, and and your and your audience. And uh the more you dilute, the less results you get. That's uh but you know what, it's human nature, that's the way it is. Um, you know, and uh usually the the OG stays the leader, but it's sometimes it's it's challenging when you have so many you know opportunities and and uh you know options people have. Um, you know, like I I really want to keep TKO like the race where all the electric world wants to be, because it's very good for us to be together and and see what to do and what not to do. You know, so hopefully it will stay that way. But you know, I I'm totally conscious that it could be different, you know. I mean, it's um yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it for for the last few years that it's happened, it it has felt like the the meeting ground for the industry. Um, you know, all the the brands that are really living, eating and breathing this, I'm gonna exclude the people that are in to make a quick buck, but the real enthusiasts that are here to promote electric dirt bikes and actually live it, they all seem to be going to TKO, whether they're racing or not, just because it's become the one of the coolest events to see electric dirt bikes uh compete on the legit course and everybody's there. So it's a fun time to get everybody together. And I think that's what has made TKO special and probably has the most entries out of you know any of the other at least Harden Dero rounds that we'll see.
SPEAKER_02Yep, absolutely. And and thanks for your help, you know, while we're at it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I mean, you're the you're the impetus for all of it. I mean, the you're you're clearly the the mover and the shaker to make these things happen. So um, I mean, I think we're gonna be a good thing.
SPEAKER_02The older you get, the the least quickly uh you make rash decisions. You know, I mean it's just uh it's just you know the older I get, the more Japanese I become.
SPEAKER_00You know, slow to make a call, yeah. Well, thankfully we have time because yeah, a lot of these riders are so young. When you look at who's buying a lot of these bikes, they're smaller bikes for smaller riders, they're younger, their parents are helping them out. And so there's time to develop a lot of this, I think.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Exactly. So hopefully we make it work uh best and uh can't cannot wait for the next TKO. By the way, a week later, sorry, we had to we had to kind of like uh uh change the schedule due to you know some uh issues with a new uh world hardened Euro Championship. And uh yeah, they put a race against us, which is completely dumb, but you know, that's uh that's the way it goes. You know, they they are in Europe with the FIM and they don't check what's going on in America, and uh that's uh that's sad, but it's fixed. We're gonna be a week later, and uh you know just uh that will allow the best riders in the world to be to be with us again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was uh one thing on my list I wanted to talk about is TKO 2026. Do you do you have the exact date off the top of your head? Do you recall what it is?
SPEAKER_02Just to Yeah, last last weekend, uh last weekend of August, uh so I would say 28th. We can I don't have the schedule. I'm afraid to touch my laptop and look for schedule right now. Yeah, don't do that. Maybe maybe I can.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe we'll throw something up on the screen.
SPEAKER_02We have a press release correcting everything. Yeah, you know, and uh I'm surprised you didn't get it. I should have been sending it to you. My bad if I didn't.
SPEAKER_01I no, I got it. I just forget what the date is too, but I it was something I wanted to touch on because it's important um seeing that date change. I I selfishly I have a race the weekend before. Um, and so seeing it a week later, I was like, oh, it gives me a little bit of breathing room. So I'm not terribly upset.
SPEAKER_02I think we all we all felt that way. I said, no, we cannot move a week earlier. A week earlier is not possible. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Week later, that's okay.
SPEAKER_02It can always be later, but not earlier.
SPEAKER_01So and watch, it'll it'll pour rain the week that it was supposed to be, and then it'll be dry. I'm still yet to race a TKO, a wet TKO. Every year it's been dry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's uh that's uh that's kind of our our curse. You know, it's been uh really uh really challenging on that. And uh we when you've seen TKO slick and wet, uh you you realize that you we cannot push. You know, I mean we I've seen top 10 guys not able to go uh on a 20-foot hill, you know, because it's so slimy. And it's just uh I think the an electric bike with a proper set of tires could do actual wonder there. It's uh you know, it's uh it could be could be quite amazing. I mean, I I know I will not try to ride the TKO course on anything than a good electric bike, you know, and it's uh I mean Eddie kind of proved it last year.
SPEAKER_01Like what did he end up? Was it sixth place um TKO last year?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I no, I think he was more like 11th out of uh out of 16.
SPEAKER_01Okay, but still it was very impressive to see.
SPEAKER_02He was a top 10 guy at the end, which is this year he he will he will be pre-qualified and start on Sunday, so yeah, he won't have to worry about uh you know racing and uh the amateur won't have to worry about him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh he's more like an electric uh bulldozer, yeah. You know, yeah, he's very, very legit. Um but uh a guy like Max, I uh you know, short of a prom, I see a Max making it to the final. Yeah, he's he's so he's so good. You know, I mean that's like I I see him in the final. So hopefully, hopefully I'll I'll you know he'll be the guy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Max is impressive, and it's like I I know he has plenty of dirt bike experience prior to this, but it's not like he's been racing hardened euros for a very long time either. He's just like he's a gamer, man. He's just gotten into it and just he's like a very impressive.
SPEAKER_02He's like a fish in water. Yeah, like I was seeing seeing him, you know, riding the course. I'm like, God, you not only you good, but you you're having fun. Yeah, I mean, it's like the energy level. Yeah, you can go and look for a rock to make a to make a jump. You know, I'm like, really? I mean, what did you what did you see that rock? You know, it's it's his his brain is processing everything and he still has a fun factor ready to. Kick in, which is pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00Andy's good at racing electric mountain bikes as well, which is really interesting. So I'm I'm interested to see now that he's working with Benell and they have the 775MX, that bike kind of came out of nowhere for us last year. And I'm wondering, where can we race that bike? How do we how do we enjoy that bike on a race course? That thing is so cool.
SPEAKER_02You are you are you are just not the first one to ask me that question. You know, and it's uh it's it's kind of like the forbidden fruit, you know, and uh if you if you if you taste it, you can't get the taste out of your body. It's just uh it's just insane, you know. I mean, I you know, I don't know if I told you the story, but uh when I visited Matt in Australia a couple of years ago, uh at his at his headquarters, you know, at the time it was just a startup, they had only prototypes, and we we went riding and he put me on the on a EBMX uh you know Seuron, which was a great bike and had fun. And he was on a MX775, and and I I kind of looked at him like, this is not right. It doesn't look like I was like totally turned off by the the concept, you know, and seeing how much fun he was having and how efficient he was as a rider on the MX775. I mean, like after a couple days of riding, I say, hey, tomorrow morning I'm taking the MX775. I'm I'm going on my own on the trail. I don't want anybody to watch me, you know. But it's I just like I was curious and man, I I took that bike and I went riding for a couple of hours. I came back, I was just blown away. Yeah, I was like, this is this is a completely new category that nobody saw coming. And um, but the problem is what do we do with it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, absolutely. I felt the same way. Like, I when Matt was launching both the bikes, like we had talked a lot about it, and I was super excited about the dirt bikes because they're just everything to me is dirt bikes, dirt bikes, dirt bikes. But I kind of wrote the mountain bikes off, like, uh, I don't really try one, we'll talk about it. And then I got on it and I was like, oh wait, never mind. I was totally wrong on this. This is actually some of the most fun I've had on two wheels all year. And absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, changed everything.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, I I took a couple friends on Steelbender with me, and um, you know, they just came back and said, it's unbelievable. I I I mean, really, people like say, I don't need a motorcycle after riding the MX 75. It's like, you know, and there's still some issues, like I'm really worried about the tires and you know getting flats and so, but I know they're already working on solutions, they're gonna have inserts and stuff. I'm like, and that's one thing is those guys are unbelievable at reacting, you know, and it's uh, you know, you you you tell them something, it's not like they're not listening, you know. And uh yeah, no, it's just um, you know, and and the geometry of their frame from the 775 and the AM is just amazing. It's so good. It's like I never felt more comfortable on a bicycle in my life, just period. And it's you know, I I I hate to say it, but I think downhill I go as fast as with my dirt bike, which is not very smart. Uh actually, it's not very smart because I've lost some blood on the trails the last couple of weeks, I saw just proving it was not very smart. Uh, but it just yeah, it's just amazing. It's um, yeah, it's I I thought like for even for freestyle. I mean, in my in my uh I had a conversation with X Games. I say, why don't we get 10 MX775 and let the guys you know do tricks and stuff? It it could be it could be elevating the game, but you know, I didn't get much traction on that, you know.
SPEAKER_01Speaking of X Games, I want to talk about that a little bit because there is a little bit of drama early on and with the the Starks being in, but it sounds like they're back now. Is that uh you're doing? How did how did that go?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean it's you know, all the positive was, I mean, I I put uh I make the role for X-Games. So in in 16, uh, you know, I opened X-Game to electric bikes. You know, we had uh Nate Adams and that was mostly Nate Adams, he was doing best weapon tricks with the Altar. And you know, he was he was on the on the soft side of his career, so he was just not he's not gonna win at that point, you know. And you know, as long as you don't win, nobody cares.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. Exactly. Once you start yeah rubbing shoulders with the top guys, it's becomes a problem.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so it was uh I mean almost uh eight years the the the electric bike were allowed at X Games, and honestly, so too. I mean, X Game was super supportive, they they're very progressive, they love the idea, you know. Um, you know, at X-Game is very clean, it's not it's not green, but it's clean, you know, we recycle, we've it's it's just uh you know, it's a it's a good environment, and they they love the the electric bike concept. And uh then in uh in 2023 or four, yeah, 24, uh you know Patrick Evans won with a stark. And um obviously he was doing things that were difficult to do on a regular bike. I mean, Patrick Evans is super talented, great rider, he can do a lot of things, but uh we we concluded that technically speaking, there was an issue with the fact that you can spin your wheel at 100 miles an hour in the air with a with a one-gear electric motor. When you know when you whip a bike with a gas bike, you're usually in third gear, and when you you turn a throttle, the wheel is turning way less fast. So that that was kind of like a reality, you know. And um that that part was we were okay with it, but then then it would it became political, and uh some people were not not happy with electric bike, and that's that became uh uh an issue. So, you know, I uh you have you have two choices in uh in life when you have something that doesn't look good and you're told to do something that is not right, or you do it, or you walk away, and I you know I had to do it. You know, I didn't want to walk away because if I was walking away, nobody could lobby to get them back. And it's it's what we did this year. You know, we we reopened the door to electric bikes for uh best tricks, and uh Patrick Evans will be back with us, and um, you know, that will be the rider's talent more than the bike. I'm not taking anything away from Patrick, you know, winning X-Game two years ago, but he discovered how to use an electric bike uh better than the other guys. You know, that's that was uh just uh his talents and on top of his talent, you know. So we we have electric bike back at X-Game this year on on the on the best trick discipline.
SPEAKER_00Cool. Best trick, but not best whip.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, not best whip. Best whip is still you know still something that uh and and honestly, it it's advantageous to be on the electric bike. Yeah, so uh yeah. That thing spins so fast. I mean, and don't ask me because I can't I can't do a whip with anything, you know.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, there's a lot of rider talent in the right hands, it's pretty impressive. I mean, like you see Patrick Evans, like I mean, literally just turning full 180. Full 180, yeah. It's just yeah insane. Like it looks like it's defying physics, but um yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And there is a physic aspect of it which cannot be, you know. I mean, it as much as I would like to say it's not, I wouldn't be honest by saying that. You know, so there's definitely a technical advantage there. That's uh, you know, and and and uh coming back to the noise, it's you know, it's not good for the show to have only electric bike. We need to have, you know, we need to have some some noise. So at that point, it it's you know, we went full in electric for 10 years, we had a one year off. Now we're coming back at 50, and uh time will tell.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Well, cool, man. Is there anything else on the the horizon this year that you're excited about or anything you can talk about?
SPEAKER_02No, just just still looking for, I I want to, I would like to create a big electric-only event, uh, but it has to be its location, location, location. You know, it has to be good timing, good place. Uh, you know, uh I I wish we'd still we still had a you know supercross in Las Vegas every year, same place, because you know it's how Minimoto was created 20 years ago. Um yeah, we we don't have like you know, I told you I was looking in Denver, but then they keep demolishing, rebuilding. We don't really know what's going on there. Uh so yeah, we'll uh you know keep on it's when the stars will line up, you know, we'll we'll be right we we'll we'll be right, you know. Cool. Hopefully sooner than later. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Well, cool. Uh like I said in the beginning, Eric, I think we'll plan to have you on regularly to give some some check-ins on the industry since you have such a pulse on it. And uh yeah, man, it was it was good to get a little background and let the people know who are following along, uh how important you are to pushing this stuff forward. And um, I know I speak for a lot of people where I say thank you for uh making so much of this stuff happen because it really does make a difference.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you so much. Appreciate you know, you you you you're also on in in the same boat, you're pushing it very hard, and uh, you know, we we're trying to do the right thing at the right time. So let's uh let's keep on doing it.
SPEAKER_01Awesome, man. Sounds good. All right. Thanks for the time, Eric. Thanks. All right, cheers. All right, all right, see ya. If you made it this far and you want more, and if this was useful, please like and subscribe.